Forums - Anybody wanna learn MSH vs. SF? Show all 37 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- Anybody wanna learn MSH vs. SF? (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=44906) Posted by DeathFromAbove on 10:29:2001 05:41 AM: Anybody wanna learn MSH vs. SF? Ask anything you wanna know. Any and all questions answered in detail. And, FYI...the characters who are actually playable are... Wolverine Captain America/US Agent Iron Body Zangief Ryu Cyclops Blackheart ...and maybe Dark Sakura. I can still answer questions on Hulk if you want, mind you...but he sucks massively, so you'd be better off without him. So, who's first? Posted by Mr. E on 10:29:2001 06:04 AM: who was top tier in this game? I played Wolverine and mainly did the berserker rage infinite (c.lk,c.mk,c.fierce, dash, repeat) who would compliment him? Posted by DeathFromAbove on 10:29:2001 06:23 AM: quote: Originally posted by Mr. E who was top tier in this game? Top Tier: Wolverine, Captain America, US Agent quote: I played Wolverine and mainly did the berserker rage infinite (c.lk,c.mk,c.fierce, dash, repeat) who would compliment him? For starters, leave out the c.mk, and just repeat the C.HP 'til you get out of range (yes, it combos into itself), then dash and start over. That's better damage. Throw them when they block. I think that's what pretty much everybody did. Basically, nobody ever learned to do anything else, which is why the game wasn't competitive for too long. Wolverine beats everybody else hands down except Iron Body Zangief, or Blackheart with a big lead. (Shuma with 3 levels is a pain, too.) You want someone who beats those guys. So pick either Ryu or Cyclops. Their beams take IBZ out pretty much completely. Wolverine builds free meter against IBZ (and everyone else except Blackheart) by running away and using SJ.MP repeatedly (use dive kick, wall jump, and drill claw to reposition). Build 2-3 meters, bait IBZ into doing a normal jump, and team super. That's 50-60%, and you switch into a favorable matchup. Run away with other character (you have the lead at this point), build a meter, bait anything besides a SJ and beam super...dead IBZ. In a perfectly played match, this is why Wolverine beats everybody. But Wolverine players tend to be predictable, which is why I dominated my arcade without really using him. Have fun. -DFA Posted by soujiroten on 10:29:2001 06:47 AM: Actually, since wolverine's c.fierce moves him forward, you never get out of range. Wolverine had 1 main tactic, and that tactic is just damn nasty... It has 2 parts. #1: The Meter Building. Wolvie-Copter (superjump, mash strong button, builds around 1 super meter per super jump). #2: Once meter is full, activate speed super (qcb+PP). Dash at opponent (unless opponent is Iron Gief). Throw if they block, or dash short->c.fierce. Repeat c.fierce for remainder of super time *or* they get dizzy. If they get dizzy, your super speed will about run out. Re-start speed super. Proceed to c.fierce them again until they are at about 20% health. Combo c.fierce into berserker barrage X. Character is dead. Go build more meter now. Repeat on second guy. --SJ Posted by DeathFromAbove on 10:29:2001 07:09 AM: quote: Originally posted by soujiroten Actually, since wolverine's c.fierce moves him forward, you never get out of range. Well, that's mostly true, but if you wanna get technical, against characters with a narrow standing hit animation (Cyclops, e.g.), if you hit a C.HP at the just incorrect distance, you'll whiff the next one because being hit also pushes the opponent back (even though he pursues them). Also, the characters with an extra-short hitstun (Bison & Spiderman) can block on certain spacing. The dash fixes those problems once you recognize that spacing. Also... quote: Wolverine had 1 main tactic... You outlined that quite clearly, thanx. Although, he did have other stuff he could do...which turned out to be important since that was how you won the Wolverine vs. Wolverine fight (don't forget Fatal Claw!). But, overall...good info. Thanx. -DFA Posted by jasonC on 10:29:2001 07:14 AM: Explain to me the match up of Blackheart vs. Wolvie. I got beat pretty bad by a bh player cuz i didn't understand the what he was trying to do. Later on, I realized it was some sort of keepaway/annoyance thing, but I'd like to hear what u have to say on this. Posted by Mr. E on 10:29:2001 07:27 AM: BH, from what I understand, revolves around batterying with demons, and chipping with the air/ground demon super. If he managed to land a hit with the demons, he would follow up with a super, if you committed to a wiffed move or a slow move from far away, he would inferno you. that's about all I know about BH. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 10:29:2001 07:56 AM: quote: Originally posted by jasonC Explain to me the match up of Blackheart vs. Wolvie. I got beat pretty bad by a bh player cuz i didn't understand the what he was trying to do. Later on, I realized it was some sort of keepaway/annoyance thing, but I'd like to hear what u have to say on this. Blackheart's objective in this fight is to take away your offensive options. He does this mainly by jumping back with fierce and/or roundhouse demons, which is almost completely safe. Once you run out of offensive options, you freeze, and then he moves in on you (usually with j.mk) and tries to throw you. Or if you don't freeze, he puts himself in the corner and waits for you to come for him, airdashes over you and traps you in the corner, where he can throw you repeatedly or combo into super. The catch is that if you get hit by j.hk demons, he probably hits you with Judgment Day. As Wolverine, what you'd really like to do is bait him into throwing an Inferno you can block. Then you get a free combo. The best way to accomplish this is to just keep jumping backwards with assorted attacks (anything except HK), and SJing with MP, and only throwing 2-3, then blocking. At the beginning of a match, all you have to do is outbuild him in meter (easy to do). If your 2nd character is Ryu (and it should be), you can team super his jumpback HP. If it isn't Ryu, you can speedup (makes his life difficult) or switchout (safe switch is into jumpback HP). Your best 1 on 1 option is probably sliding claw (df + HP) under demons. That hurts his ability to jumpback. Fatal Claw through anything you can't avoid (it's a 1 frame super that's completely invulnerable). Try using your wall jump, and do your dash jump all the way over him to bait out attacks. If you catch him on the ground blocking, do strong throw, dash immediately afterward and you get a meaty attack. Repeat until they learn to tech-hit. This stuff all works much better during speed-up, naturally. But really, shouldn't you be trying to kill Wolverine? -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 10:29:2001 08:07 AM: quote: Originally posted by Mr. E BH, from what I understand, revolves around batterying with demons, and chipping with the air/ground demon super. If he managed to land a hit with the demons, he would follow up with a super, if you committed to a wiffed move or a slow move from far away, he would inferno you. that's about all I know about BH. Chipping isn't really an effective strategy for anyone in this game. Blackheart occasionally throws "random" Judgment Days. In reality, these aren't random, they always come after blocked demons, and are a spacing tool, forcing you to start over from a full screen away. The fact that opponents think this is for chipping tends to make them more aggressive, which plays into Blackheart's game, since what he really wants is for you to run blindly into HK demons. And, yes, Inferno is basically a mistake punisher. -DFA Posted by Combo Master on 10:29:2001 08:08 AM: Most of the combos from Liquid Metal's MSH vs. SF and XSF Combo vid tape featured in the Miscellaneous combo vids menu of the Multimedia section in this site. What Im interested:Long combos for.. 1)Shuma Gorath 2)Wolverine (I'll post the longest one I have later on) 3)Omega Red 4)Black Heart 5)Captain American 6)Sakura 7)Chun-Li If you have long combos for these guys, please post them! I'd really appreciate it! Posted by Combo Master on 10:29:2001 08:24 AM: If you're playing solo (human vs. cpu), BH is very good for beating the crap out of Apocalypse for free and Cyber Akuma with almost little effort! vs. Cyber Akuma: 1)Cyber Akuma can be pretty much one mean bitch! Throws rocket punches (S.FP) followed by dash and C.Roundhouse sweep constantly...very annoying if you're using limited characters (say zangief). But BH can super jump, throw out SJ.Roundhouse Demons and if C.A gets hit by them and BH lands quickly, you can get a Heart Of Darkness for free (or team super, which is worse). 2)If C.A throws out constant air fireballs (which he usually does as well), just super jump at the same time he does and if you end up jumping higher than him, air dash and air throw. If he does his Tenma Gou Zankuu super (a lot of fireballs rain with lots of damage), you should super jump as well and try to get above his head (try to air dash without getting hit by the super fireballs) and do air Judgement Day! 3)If he tries to do his Raging Demon (level 1, very painful), super jump away from him and land on the other side. If he's still recovering from that super, you get a free Heart Of Darkness or Judgement Day super! So in the end, BH can be just as much of a bitch as Cyber Akuma can be. You can't pick Cyber Akuma at the arcades, but you can on PSX MSH vs. SF. Truth is that Cyber Akuma is way too overpowered. But its fun using him own tactic against him or playing mind tricks with him and kicking his ass for free! ....Pretty Sad for Cyber Akuma! Posted by DeathFromAbove on 10:29:2001 08:51 AM: quote: Originally posted by Combo Master What Im interested: Long combos for.. 1)Shuma Gorath 2)Wolverine (I'll post the longest one I have later on) 3)Omega Red 4)Black Heart 5)Captain American 6)Sakura 7)Chun-Li If you have long combos for these guys, please post them! I'd really appreciate it! To be honest, combos were never my best strength. The reason I was good at this game was that I mastered all the matchups, and the little eccentricities of the game. Stuff like... Bison and Spiderman can block after the 3rd hit of a Shoryuu Reppa if it's done from more than 2/3 of a character width away. The ranges at which Blackheart's standing mk beats Wolverine's crossover j.hk. Omega Red has an invulnerable rising animation (after being tripped) that's about 4 frames longer than every other character. Don't meaty attack him unless you know this. But anyway, here are my B&B combos for these guys: Shuma: (corner) j.mp,j.lk,s.mp,s.mk ^ sj(lk,mp,mk,up+hp, hk throw) Wolverine: (speed-up) c.hp(repeat) Omega Red: j.lp,j.mp,s.lp,s.mp ^ sj(lp,mp,lp,lk,mk,hp or hp throw) Blackheart: j.mk,c.lk,c.lk,s.mp ^ sj(lp,lk,mp,air throw) Captain America: (corner)j.hp, dash c.lp, c.hp ^ sj(lp,lp ^ lp,hp,down+hk) Sakura: crossover j.hk, c.hp ^ sj(lp,lk,mk XX fireball) Chun Li: dash c.lk,s.mp,c.hp XX Senretsu Kyaku Nothing much special. You can get fancier if you want, but these get the job done, and hit consistently. Also, the Shuma combo gives you a free meaty jump-in at the end of the combo. -DFA PS. I'm going to sleep now. I'll be back Tues or Wed. Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on 10:29:2001 08:00 PM: How exactly does the CapAm/USAgent trap work? Josh the FunkDOC Posted by Cornelius on 10:30:2001 01:29 AM: Dhalsim and Omega Red are also playable...Spider-man is also a poor man's wolverine minus any usable supers, but does have an easy infinite if you can do shoryukens. Hulk and Akuma are also usable for their assists. I believe the USA/Cap Am trap is Call assist, J. Fierce, S. Fierce, repeat. Posted by RagingAkuma on 10:30:2001 08:18 PM: I've had great success against Wolvy players with my Hulk-Akuma team. Hulk's armour and sheer power allows him to hurt Wolverine, especially with Akuma's assist. When Wolvy slides for the infinite the Gamma Slam or if the meters there Gamma Wave often left Wolvy hurting... Especially since three Gamma Waves and Wolvy's dead. Also people tend to lay off the infinite where I played, I mean how much fun is doing the same fucking move over and over anyway? Why bother playing if that's all you're gonna do? Takes no skill whatsoever and any scrub can do it. Posted by Dasrik on 10:30:2001 10:58 PM: Wolverine breaks this game. All these theoretical strategies to beat Wolverine only works on people who are predictable and only know how to do the infinite. When Wolvy is on speedup, he can maneuver his way around anything - fierce demons, Gamma Slam and whatever you might make up. When any hit leads to damage, and any grounded hits lead to an infinite, your options are pretty much cut short. Top tier in this game: 0) Wolverine then way down below 2) Omega Red 3) Spiderman 4) Blackheart 5) CapAm/US Agent Posted by DeathFromAbove on 10:31:2001 07:17 AM: quote: Originally posted by Cornelius Dhalsim and Omega Red are also playable...Spider-man is also a poor man's wolverine minus any usable supers, but does have an easy infinite if you can do shoryukens. Yes, Spiderman is playable, but why would you use him? Everything he has, Wolverine has in spades. And they don't really compliment each other on a team. And he's the single most boring character ever to disgrace a video game. Dhalsim and Omega Red both appear to be very good at first glance. However, both have some glaring weaknesses that, IMO, keep them from seriously contending with a good player. Dhalsim lacks any semblance of speed, and doesn't have the ability to generate any damaging combos. Any player with enough patience not to run into those extended limbs takes him apart pretty completely with any character except Zangief. He only escapes being a garbage character because he's a bitch to actually hurt if he has a big lead. Unless the opponent is Wolverine. Omega Red is exactly the opposite. He has mad offense. He stuffs assists, and actually has a couple effective patterns. Unfortunately, he has no defensive capability whatsoever. Learn his patterns, and any character with superior speed beats him. Anyone faster than Hulk should be able to make him block, and from there you can put him in a corner and destroy him. He beats the big slow guys (gives Blackheart some problems, too), but in the end, he loses more than he wins. quote: Hulk and Akuma are also usable for their assists. Hulk is trash at point. If you think a good assist is worth giving up a usable character, go ahead. Akuma is Ryu with poor stamina and a slower beam super. Use him if you've got a hard-on for Shotos and want more than 1 on you team, but otherwise, just use Ryu. -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 10:31:2001 07:47 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Wolverine breaks this game. All these theoretical strategies to beat Wolverine only works on people who are predictable and only know how to do the infinite. When Wolvy is on speedup, he can maneuver his way around anything - fierce demons, Gamma Slam and whatever you might make up. When any hit leads to damage, and any grounded hits lead to an infinite, your options are pretty much cut short. Top tier in this game: 0) Wolverine then way down below 2) Omega Red 3) Spiderman 4) Blackheart 5) CapAm/US Agent It's not that hopeless. If you get intimidated by Wolvie and go defensive during the speed-up, God help you. But if you just keep moving around (staying in the air helps), and attack him, you can run out the speed-up time. It's kind of like penalty-killing in hockey. One way or another, you've got to attack him, or you're never going to kill him. As for Cap/Agent, you seem to be missing something for him. In my mind, he's the one and only character in the game who can effectively use assists...not just for the trap (which is really not so much a trap as it is a lot of baiting). You fight Cap, you have 2 characters onscreen to contend with, with everyone else it's just one character, even Wolverine. Lastly, Cap has as many, if not more, free wins than Wolverine. -DFA Posted by Dasrik on 10:31:2001 09:01 AM: I know you mean well, DFA, but you don't really seem to understand this game at all. Let me clarify by looking at your posts. quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Yes, Spiderman is playable, but why would you use him? Everything he has, Wolverine has in spades. And they don't really compliment each other on a team. And he's the single most boring character ever to disgrace a video game. Certain people would disagree with you vehemently, but all that aside, there are some one-ups Spidey has on Wolvie - priority and a fireball. Of course, that all becomes meaningless once Wolverine speeds up, but some people just like Spider-Man quote: Dhalsim lacks any semblance of speed, and doesn't have the ability to generate any damaging combos. Any player with enough patience not to run into those extended limbs takes him apart pretty completely with any character except Zangief. He only escapes being a garbage character because he's a bitch to actually hurt if he has a big lead. Unless the opponent is Wolverine. I agree with most of this. Getting an air dash in MvC2 helped Sim tremendously, given the amazing amount of shit they took away from him in MSF. quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove It's not that hopeless. If you get intimidated by Wolvie and go defensive during the speed-up, God help you. But if you just keep moving around (staying in the air helps), and attack him, you can run out the speed-up time. It's kind of like penalty-killing in hockey. One way or another, you've got to attack him, or you're never going to kill him. The problem here is that you can't really attack him. It IS possible to learn to maneuver Wolverine when he's sped up. Once you do that, you find out that most attacks are just UNSAFE on Wolverine. It's just a matter of looking out for them and then landing that crouch forward. And if they take to the air, it's cool. You can keep doing jump strongs with impunity to build yet more meter to try again. Wolvie gets speedup pretty much for free in MSF, and no character outside of IBZ has an answer for it besides "Get lucky". quote: As for Cap/Agent, you seem to be missing something for him. In my mind, he's the one and only character in the game who can effectively use assists...not just for the trap (which is really not so much a trap as it is a lot of baiting). You fight Cap, you have 2 characters onscreen to contend with, with everyone else it's just one character, even Wolverine. Lastly, Cap has as many, if not more, free wins than Wolverine. Cap/USA beats bottom to middle tier pretty clean, and it's fair to say he dominates Spider-Man also. But there ARE holes in the trap, and they can be found and exploited by some characters (*coughWolverinecough*), especially if Cap/USA player get overly mechanical. quote: Omega Red is exactly the opposite. He has mad offense. He stuffs assists, and actually has a couple effective patterns. Unfortunately, he has no defensive capability whatsoever. Learn his patterns, and any character with superior speed beats him. Anyone faster than Hulk should be able to make him block, and from there you can put him in a corner and destroy him. He beats the big slow guys (gives Blackheart some problems, too), but in the end, he loses more than he wins. OR is top tier for precisely this reason. He is all offense. He doesn't need to be defensive - if he gets in a bind, an Omega Strike is usually enough to reset the match back to his favor. And since any air combo means OR gets life back, you're hard-pressed to actually risk trying to hit Omega Red when he's poking you endlessly. Wolverine beats OR simply because he can outrun a retracted Omega Strike when sped up. Posted by nightmareivy on 10:31:2001 01:23 PM: i know i can beat ass in msh vs. sf and that includes all you guys. -Erik Posted by Dasrik on 10:31:2001 08:53 PM: quote: Originally posted by nightmareivy i know i can beat ass in msh vs. sf and that includes all you guys. No one cares about your worthless opinion. Go back to chickening out on tournaments. Posted by Shoto-ism™ on 10:31:2001 09:52 PM: Wasn't Metal Gief a threat to Wolvie? Ken was really good in MSHvSF as well. Oh, kinda useless fact now, but chun's qcf +PP super was invincible then. Posted by soujiroten on 10:31:2001 10:02 PM: Iron Gief was a threat to wolverine one on one, sure. The problem lies in the fact that Wolverine owns pretty much anyone else for free, and can build meter for his teammate to own iron gief. Iron Gief has to *catch* Wolverine to hurt him, and Wolverine can run away forever, wolvie-copter to build meter, then team super to safely tag out and eat a good portion of iron gief's life. Said teammate then proceeds to kill iron gief but good. If you're down to wolverine vs iron gief, it's in iron gief's favor. Unfortunately, you'll almost never be in this situation unless the other guy doesn't start with wolvie, so you actually have a chance to kill his teammate... --SJ Posted by State of Nature on 10:31:2001 11:57 PM: Great thread guys. Can anybody outline what Wolvie vs. Wolvie looks like? Wolvie copter...hehehe. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 11:01:2001 12:15 AM: Omega Red a top tier! Holy shit! Anyone with the top tier assist in this game? Posted by Combo Master on 11:01:2001 04:56 AM: What can you tell us about: 1)Chun-Li 2)Ryu 3)Akuma 4)Dan (lol..he's a joke) 5)Cyclops 6)Shuma-Gorath 7)M.Bison Posted by Cornelius on 11:02:2001 05:19 PM: Dhalsim - Okay, you don't get hit by limbs, but then what? How exactly do you go about taking him apart completely? And he might not be able to land it very often but C. Strong XX yoga strike does a grip. OR - About him being pure offense, actually OR can runaway with Omega Strikes against everyone but sped up wolverine. Spidey - One tiny point - his infinite doesn't require a super meter. Other than that he is a poor man's wolverine. Cap - He sucks in my area. What makes him so good besides insane priority on J. Fierce and the Cap/USAgent pseudo-trap? And how does he have free wins? Posted by Cornelius on 11:02:2001 05:30 PM: quote: Originally posted by Combo Master What can you tell us about : 1)Chun-Li 2)Ryu 3)Akuma 4)Dan (lol..he's a joke) 5)Cyclops 6)Shuma-Gorath 7)M.Bison 1) chun-li- bad. Really really bad. 4) Dan-Mad throw range. Really strong. Takes hits like a bitch and has no abusable moves. He DOES have the shoto launcher, though, and his air combo hurts (esp. with air throw if they can't tech-hit). Just hope you can throw better than your opponent. Don't forget Otoko Michi sucks complete ass in this game 5) cyclops-really bad. he can build meter with SJ roundhouse, but that's about it. MOB doesn't chip much, can't even SOB in an air combo, and optic XX SOB doesn't work. Optic blasts hurt more than they appear, though. 6) Shuma-he's alright. eyeballs chip a bunch. He superjumps very very slowly. There are pretty good setups for CD, and his roundhouse throw is pretty good. Very good priority on his launcher. 7) Bison-underrated. He's very strong and has good throw range, but is slow. His flight mode is kinda fun to runaway with, and exploding ball is pretty good if your opponent doesn't know it's properties. Posted by State of Nature on 11:02:2001 06:01 PM: quote: Originally posted by Cornelius 4) Dan-Takes hits like a bitch 5) cyclops-and optic XX SOB doesn't work. 4. Really? I recalled Dan being very strong in this game. Can anybody confirm this for sure? I used him all the time and recalled being under the impression he took hits better than the shotos. 5. Why would this be expected to work in the first place? He couldn't do it before, and super cancels wouldn't come til MvC2 anyway. Also, could anybody break down what Wolvie vs Wolvie looks like? Posted by DeathFromAbove on 11:03:2001 04:56 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Certain people would disagree with you vehemently, but all that aside, there are some one-ups Spidey has on Wolvie - priority and a fireball. Of course, that all becomes meaningless once Wolverine speeds up, but some people just like Spider-Man It's my thread so I get to put my opinion in, so nyah. Anyway, fireballs are pretty much ass in this game, and Spidey's is the worst of them (not counting Dan's as a fireball). I know you're not going to tell me that "c.lk,c.mk,s.hk XX web ball" is ALL that important. There's very little else those things are good for. Which leaves us with priority...sorry, Wolvie bests him there, too. Even outside of speedup, priority in MSH vs. SF is a matter of angles of attack. Wolverine has the better attack on crossup jumpin (j.hk) and from way-out-in-front jumpin (j.lp). His s.hp beats everything Spidey has on the ground (though it leads to very little). On a braindead normal jumpin, Spidey has better priority. Not to say that Spiderman is bad, I've already admitted he's playable...he does have good priority, and he's a rock defensively. But if I'm going to play a character with only 1 real means of getting to the opponent, I may as well choose the one that's best at it. quote: The problem here is that you can't really attack (Wolverine). It IS possible to learn to maneuver Wolverine when he's sped up. Once you do that, you find out that most attacks are just UNSAFE on Wolverine. It's just a matter of looking out for them and then landing that crouch forward. And if they take to the air, it's cool. You can keep doing jump strongs with impunity to build yet more meter to try again. Wolvie gets speedup pretty much for free in MSF, and no character outside of IBZ has an answer for it besides "Get lucky". I said before that in a perfectly played match, Wolverine beats every other character. But everyone has a chance, and I'm more than willing to explain some tactics to try for anyone who wants them. For any character in this game, knowing your character and the opponent's, and the ranges where one attack beats another is what this game is all about - not just Wolverine. It's very possible to put attacks out there during his speed-up that he either has to block or get hit. Also, you make a wrong assumption that time is on Wolverine's side...it can be assumed that he has infinite meter in any match, but the more time he wastes building it, the more meter the opponent gets, and that can lead to some nastiness with high-priority supers. The time advantage goes to whoever has the lead, and that's not necessarily Wolverine. quote: Cap/USA beats bottom to middle tier pretty clean, and it's fair to say he dominates Spider-Man also. But there ARE holes in the trap, and they can be found and exploited by some characters (*coughWolverinecough*), especially if Cap/USA player get overly mechanical. What I said is that Cap has offense and defense aside from the trap that is way above average, and that he has the ability to consistently abuse his assists (not just to trap) throughout the match against all but a handful of characters. Even if you can counter the trap, you still have to wade through the other assist calls, and even then you still have a very good solo character to try to beat. There's only one character in the game who beats Cap (you know who), and Cap has so many free wins it would just be wrong to put him anywhere besides top tier. quote: OR is top tier for precisely this reason. He is all offense. He doesn't need to be defensive - if he gets in a bind, an Omega Strike is usually enough to reset the match back to his favor. And since any air combo means OR gets life back, you're hard-pressed to actually risk trying to hit Omega Red when he's poking you endlessly. Wolverine beats OR simply because he can outrun a retracted Omega Strike when sped up. Dash out of the way of c.hk. DP his j.lp or j.hp. DP Omega Strike. And he's vulnerable to dash-unders. Once you touch him, you end with an assist he blocks, rejump-in, start over til you push him to the corner. From there you get rethrow madness and extra damage combos, plus you get a meaty attack after extended ACs in the corner. In close quarters, he has 0 defensive normals, specials, or supers. I've never been known for letting people poke me, and it's worked very well. I can't recall the last time I lost to OR. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 11:03:2001 05:17 AM: quote: Originally posted by State of Nature Great thread guys. Can anybody outline what Wolvie vs. Wolvie looks like? Wolvie copter...hehehe. Fast and ugly. A race for a meter of super, followed by a contest to try to get speedup safely, a lot of maneuvering to run away, blocked c.hps, a few throws, and start over. Occasionally a landed infinite. -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 11:03:2001 05:45 AM: quote: Originally posted by Combo Master What can you tell us about : 1)Chun-Li Good dash, air dash, triple jump, wall jump, s.hk (her launcher) beats any attack out of the air. Decent c.lk. Lightning Legs has no recovery. Everything else is awful. She sucks. You can throw her out of the middle of Senretsu Kyaku when blocked after push blocking. quote: 2)Ryu Shinkuu Hadoken makes using assists unpracticable against him. Good dash and backward dash, shoto launcher is damn good, S.hp is abusable. AC is good damage, and he beats IBZ for almost free. Cap beats him 1 on 1 even though he can't trap him down very well. Other good normals are c.lk, c.mk, c.hk. quote: 3)Akuma Ditto Ryu. Bad Stamina, Good Assist. Beam super is slower. Messatsu Gou Shoryuu is easily landable but does shit for damage. No beam super in the air makes match w/ IBZ harder, but he still wins it. quote: 4)Dan (lol..he's a joke) Better than you think. In addition to the good shoto normals, his s.mk has hella priority and combos into any super. Jumping mk and hk have better priority than the other shotos'. Launcher has shoto priority 2 frames earlier than other shotos. His supers are fast and hit hard. Massive throw range, and awesome throw damage. Can start combos out of throws and has throw infinites in the corner. Dankuu Kyaku is the best hurricane in the game. Has links (SSF2T style) from light attacks to mediums or hards, and from s.mk to s.hk. Having said that, he takes damage badly and has no consistent ranged attacks. Beam super was the only reason to choose a shoto, so forget all this shit and pick Ryu anyway. quote: 5)Cyclops Great assist. Great team super. Beats IBZ totally for free. Builds meter well. Any hk is very good, as is his dash, and walk-under. C.lk is okay, too. quote: 6)Shuma-Gorath Jumping mp is too good. Standing mp is very good, as is his launcher. C.hk has massive priority, and c.mk goes under all high attacks. Low dash height is good. Chaos Dimension is fucking awesome as a defensive weapon, but costs way too much. Throw range and priority is very good - abuse kick throw to regain life. He hurts when he gets hit and he doesn't have too much speed. Eyeballs are great for making things safe when blocked. Special throw is repeatable in the corner. Don't use Crystal Smash unless you feel like dying. quote: 7)M.Bison Abuse s.mp, it links into itself twice, has great priority and comes out amazingly fast for a mp. S.hk XX Psycho Crusher is nasty damage. Good dash and c.lk. Scissor kick out of the air against reckless jumpers. J.hk is decent air-to-ground, and his throw is also serviceable. Teleport and Head Stomp are situationally useful against opponents who superjump too much. That's the readers digest version. -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 11:03:2001 06:25 AM: quote: Originally posted by Cornelius Dhalsim - Okay, you don't get hit by limbs, but then what? How exactly do you go about taking him apart completely? Crossover jump-in. All he can do is block or slide under it. Either way, you're in, and he's in trouble. Combo, tic-throw, or go for the corner-trap. Whatever you want to do is possible once you get past that first obstacle. Cyclops assist eats him up the easiest. You may actually want to retreat a bit in order to get off the ground for your initial dash-jump. quote: Cap - He sucks in my area. What makes him so good besides insane priority on J. Fierce and the Cap/USAgent pseudo-trap? And how does he have free wins? Power + Priority + Range + Maneuverability Ability to protect assists (Final Justice). Any blocked attack is a safe attack (shield slash). A real DP. A good assist of his own. And he's able to put together at least a 5-hit 30% combo off of most errant normal hits, even at superjump height. Free wins come against any character who does not have a fast-starting super with a least 1/2 screen range that will hit a point and assist character simultaneously. Once you block anything, you get baited, get pushed into the corner, or get thrown. Any defensive posture just eats the assist while Cap positions himself. Offense is virtually impossible in the air against Caps priority, and as long as Cap doesn't get caught on the ground, ground offense isn't effective either. -DFA Posted by Cornelius on 11:03:2001 04:30 PM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Dash out of the way of c.hk. DP his j.lp or j.hp. DP Omega Strike. Can you really DP an omega strike on reaction? or dash out of the way of a c. HK? I understand DPing a j. lp or a j. hp, but what if you end up DPing a would-be omega strike or a jump in and OR just blocks it? (I'm talking about a retracted horizontal strike, not a triangle jump strike) quote: [B]And he's vulnerable to dash-unders. Once you touch him, you end with an assist he blocks, rejump-in, start over til you push him to the corner. From there you get rethrow madness and extra damage combos, plus you get a meaty attack after extended ACs in the corner. In close quarters, he has 0 defensive normals, specials, or supers.[B] Ending with an assist he blocks may get too predictable...grab with coil, omega strike, Omega destroyer, or TK carbonadium smash (glitched) all work if dash, chain, assist is a safety pattern against him. And C. mp is a pretty good defensive normal cancelled into omega strike. Omega Strike fro close range not retracted but cancelled later may not be considered defensive, but it gets OR back into poking range pretty safely. And about Dhalsim...are crossover jump ins really that safe seeing as how Dhalsim has a yoga strike...? And couldn't he just dash away anyway? Posted by Combo Master on 11:03:2001 06:05 PM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Good dash, air dash, triple jump, wall jump, s.hk (her launcher) beats any attack out of the air. Decent c.lk. Lightning Legs has no recovery. Everything else is awful. She sucks. You can throw her out of the middle of Senretsu Kyaku when blocked after push blocking. Shinkuu Hadoken makes using assists unpracticable against him. Good dash and backward dash, shoto launcher is damn good, S.hp is abusable. AC is good damage, and he beats IBZ for almost free. Cap beats him 1 on 1 even though he can't trap him down very well. Other good normals are c.lk, c.mk, c.hk. Ditto Ryu. Bad Stamina, Good Assist. Beam super is slower. Messatsu Gou Shoryuu is easily landable but does shit for damage. No beam super in the air makes match w/ IBZ harder, but he still wins it. Better than you think. In addition to the good shoto normals, his s.mk has hella priority and combos into any super. Jumping mk and hk have better priority than the other shotos'. Launcher has shoto priority 2 frames earlier than other shotos. His supers are fast and hit hard. Massive throw range, and awesome throw damage. Can start combos out of throws and has throw infinites in the corner. Dankuu Kyaku is the best hurricane in the game. Has links (SSF2T style) from light attacks to mediums or hards, and from s.mk to s.hk. Having said that, he takes damage badly and has no consistent ranged attacks. Beam super was the only reason to choose a shoto, so forget all this shit and pick Ryu anyway. Great assist. Great team super. Beats IBZ totally for free. Builds meter well. Any hk is very good, as is his dash, and walk-under. C.lk is okay, too. Jumping mp is too good. Standing mp is very good, as is his launcher. C.hk has massive priority, and c.mk goes under all high attacks. Low dash height is good. Chaos Dimension is fucking awesome as a defensive weapon, but costs way too much. Throw range and priority is very good - abuse kick throw to regain life. He hurts when he gets hit and he doesn't have too much speed. Eyeballs are great for making things safe when blocked. Special throw is repeatable in the corner. Don't use Crystal Smash unless you feel like dying. Abuse s.mp, it links into itself twice, has great priority and comes out amazingly fast for a mp. S.hk XX Psycho Crusher is nasty damage. Good dash and c.lk. Scissor kick out of the air against reckless jumpers. J.hk is decent air-to-ground, and his throw is also serviceable. Teleport and Head Stomp are situationally useful against opponents who superjump too much. That's the readers digest version. -DFA Thanks for covering this for me! I appreciate it! Posted by DeathFromAbove on 11:04:2001 12:13 AM: quote: Originally posted by Cornelius Can you really DP an omega strike on reaction? At 1/2 screen+, if you haven't blocked an attack before it, yes. It has the same startup time of a s.hk, which is plenty of time to pull out a DP. quote: or dash out of the way of a c. HK? c.hk has amazingly long startup time, and since OR has nothing that's either fast or invincible to cancel it into, you can dash straight at him with any quick hitting attack. At long ranges you won't be able to hit him before a O.Strike. Obviously this is different if you've blocked something before it, but the point is that his long range patterns are full of holes. He has to dash in close and make you block before the patterns even start to work. Jump straight up on reaction to dash-ins, and DP anytime you see a forward moving jump. That's the end of his patterns. quote: I understand DPing a j. lp or a j. hp, but what if you end up DPing a would-be omega strike or a jump in and OR just blocks it? (I'm talking about a retracted horizontal strike, not a triangle jump strike) If you (jab) DP on reaction to his doing a normal jump forward, your fist hits him at the peak of his jump, and he can't hit you in retaliation (he can make you block a coil, but that's it). As for the retracted strike, you're talking about baiting, which is basically what OR has to do to get an initial blocked hit to start his patterns. Most people don't retract before they make contact, but if you see him try to bait you, change up a bit and jump on reaction to random Omega Strikes. That's safe and still allows you to put an attack in there that he has to deal with. quote: Ending with an assist he blocks may get too predictable...grab with coil, omega strike, Omega destroyer, or TK carbonadium smash (glitched) all work if dash, chain, assist is a safety pattern against him. And C. mp is a pretty good defensive normal cancelled into omega strike. Omega Strike from close range not retracted but cancelled later may not be considered defensive, but it gets OR back into poking range pretty safely. If you get badly predictable he could pull out the Destroyer (it would take bad spacing as well). As in any game, you can't just do the same thing the entire time (did I really have to say this?). If the opponent can easily guess your next move of course he has an answer for it. At any rate, Coil Grab, O.Strike and TK Smash don't work because they only hit 1 character, which is going to be your assist. You can punish him for any of them. quote: And about Dhalsim...are crossover jump ins really that safe seeing as how Dhalsim has a yoga strike...? And couldn't he just dash away anyway? Yes, it's safe. A proper crossover isn't strikable unless he does it before you even jump. Your attack will hit him as he's coming off the ground. If you attack early in the air he cannot dash backwards (it's interpreted as blocking by the computer). Also, his forward dash is one of only a few with startup animation. It's also taller than his standing height and you will hit him before he can dash under you when you attack early. He has no threat of a walkunder. He can slide under the attack with a crouching kick, but that still leaves you in his kitchen and him in trouble. -DFA Posted by Combo Master on 11:04:2001 12:52 AM: Omega Red's assist sucks so much in MSH vs. SF that i don't know why they even gave it to him (c'mon, just a S.FP? that aint shit! ). If any of you could come up with a better assist for him, what would it be?...besides the stupid S.FP which has barely no range and its slow. God I hate that assist! All times are GMT. The time now is 10:38 PM. Show all 37 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.